Evolution, Creation, or somewhere in between?
Oh boy - here we go...
So the question is where do you fall? Are you an evolustionist, a creationist or somewhere in the middle (theistic-evolution)? I'm not going to post the discussions that I have been engaged in over the past couple of days, but let's just say it has been both eye-opening and very interesting. There exists an email group made up primarily of Church of Christ ministers and leaders and sometimes the discussions on there can get rather sticky. Well, this one has come up in the last couple days, but since all the discussion within the group is respectfully confidential, I thought I would toss out a similar question just to see what peoples thoughts are.
Can you be a Chrsitian and believe in Evolution (macro)? Are the two at odds or can are they complimentary to one another? How would changing your view regarding Evolution (either pro or con) change your view of Scripture, if at all?
Shawn
So the question is where do you fall? Are you an evolustionist, a creationist or somewhere in the middle (theistic-evolution)? I'm not going to post the discussions that I have been engaged in over the past couple of days, but let's just say it has been both eye-opening and very interesting. There exists an email group made up primarily of Church of Christ ministers and leaders and sometimes the discussions on there can get rather sticky. Well, this one has come up in the last couple days, but since all the discussion within the group is respectfully confidential, I thought I would toss out a similar question just to see what peoples thoughts are.
Can you be a Chrsitian and believe in Evolution (macro)? Are the two at odds or can are they complimentary to one another? How would changing your view regarding Evolution (either pro or con) change your view of Scripture, if at all?
Shawn
posted by Shawn White | 9/15/2006 01:27:00 PM
17 Comments:
I don’t' have much experience in this subject. I did study Astronomy for a year in school. Using this background, I find that when you study the universe there is a lot we can't see and don't understand. I believe what we can see can lead you to see God's creation in motion. You can see that everything is moving outwards (is red shifted) from a central point and that the farther we can see out into the universe the father we are seeing back in time. For example, when we are looking at Quasars, we are seeing something that happened billions of years ago. Time then is something totally different then we realize. When I think of this and the creation told of in Genesis, I realize that time may not be exactly how we think of it when we read about the creation of the earth. This knowledge leads me to believe that science and theology actually compliment each other if we actually understood and could see the "big picture.” As humans I think we only see a little part of the picture and that is why faith is so important to us.
Kathleen - You wrote, "When I think of this and the creation told of in Genesis, I realize that time may not be exactly how we think of it when we read about the creation of the earth." In what way might time be different? Or do you think that it is time that is the same, but our understanding of the Genesis account of creation that might be in question? For instance - do you think that "day" in the Genesis Creation account may not be a literal 24-hour day?
Regardless of how you answer that question - do you think that God created everything, or that God began creation and then let evolution take over or is evolution even an option?
Shawn
I believe that time may not be how we precieve it and that we don't really understand it, so yes, a day could be differnet then we think of it in the Genisis account and may not be a literal 24 hours. I do think God created everything and is still in control of it all, not that he just "let evolution" take over or something. Evolution (which I have not studies very much) could be part of his creation, however, I believe that humans are a special creation (hence the "missing link" that no one can find) and that seems to match what is said in Genisis. I believe the scripture is true. I also believe science is true, but that we may not be able to see the "big picture" when it comes to how these two fit together all the time. I am ok with not understanding everything because I also have faith.
Ack, I forgot to spell check my last post...sorry for any bad spelling. I am not good at spelling!!!
Good thoughts. I'll have to give my view after a couple of more people comment. Thanks for participating! :)
shawn
My view on the matter.
I believe that evolution (Darwinian Macro-evolution) does not and cannot happen. This is part of the evolutionary threory that says that one species can mutate and evolve into other species over time through undirected, chance processes.
First, it seems to me that God creating implies planning and intent - a specific purpose or design. Evolution requires undirected, blind processes - essentially randomness and chance. To think that evolution alone has brought everything about is troublesome. How do I know that my thinking and my reasoning and my conclusions are not just processes of randomness as well? I think at a particular level it does damage to the way we understand reality. On another level it raises questions of morals, justice, beauty and the like. Where did our concepts of these things come from? Why do we care for the sick, the handicapped and the elderly? Doesn't evolution teach "Survival of the Fittest"? If they aren't fit enough to survive - then get rid of them because the bottom line isn't their survival, but how their survival prolongs mine. It seems that evolution alone is a very self-centered type of existence.
Second, it seems that the blending of the two into what is commonly called Theist-Evolution has just as many issues as well. If God kicked it off and let evolution do the work (one theory) or if God created initially and then used evolution to direct the rest of what was created (a contradiction in terms) then how does this effect our doctrines of The Fall, or God's immanence (his closeness), etc. If God used evolution to direct and finish creation, but if evolution is an undirected process - then we are essentially talking about square-circles - aren't we? Further, how can God blame us for the Fall if our sin was a matter of evolutionary change - aren't we a victim of our own evolutionary genes? We dance to whatever they tell us to do - how can we be held accountable for that? Also, if evolution, directed by God, is to explain how we came into existence - at what point did God provide us with a spirit - a soul?
Finally - seems to me that both of these ideas do not fit in well with the Genesis account. Now, I know that the Genesis account is not to be taken scientifically. I'm okay with that as I am with an old-earth view. But the things I have been hearing and reading by well educated Christians is a bit surprising. That Genesis is a symbollical account of what happened and that we can't take the first 11 chapters as anything more than that was one view put out there. The problem with that is if it is true - then it effects the rest of Scripture because why did Jesus come at all then if it is made up stories and myth?
Well - that's my rant, although I could go on to say much more, I believe this comment is too long as it is. I should say that I was never really good in Science class - that I struggled just to get C's. I am also not a theologian in any sense of the word. However, I don't think you necessarily have to be an expert in order to have an informed, intelligent and well-reasoned view on these types of topics. While it may be proven that I am a bit naive about my stance, and until I have been convinced otherwise, I do not see how Intelligent Design and Darwinian Evolution are compatible.
Shawn
Paul writes to the church at Corinth that God had made foolish the wisdom of the world. All the great philosophers of their day (some pretty amazing discoveries about physics, medicine, astrology, etc.) seemed to have all the answers, but Paul points out that they know nothing of the way God works.
I won't put the entire scripture here, but 1st Cor 1:18 - 2:16 is a great quote to debunk man's thought that we have any idea of the mind of God... what He did, what He is doing, what He is going to do. Our human brains are not capable of "getting it", our attempt to explain it is foolishness.
Paul also addresses the divisions such discussions create within the body of Christ in 1st Cor 1:10-17. We need to understand the differences we read into scripture and love our brother in Christ.
BTW, I believe in a literal 6 day creation with all the "trillions of years of striation and dinosaur fossils" already put in the ground. Scientists find that the more they study our planet and the solar system, the less they know about how, or even why, the earth sustains life.
Shawn - this is a good discussion. I can only see sound reasoning in your comments.
As for my views on Creation vs. Evolution vs. Theist Evolution, my take on it comes from my perspective as a designer. Good design comes from a labor of purpose, planning, and execution of the plan. Even bad design has purpose - perhaps just poor planning or execution. For work, I use a computer to help me create stuff... but unless I devise a purpose for something I should create, it doesn't get created, my computer just sits there, burning energy. For me, Darwinian Evolution has too many internal contradictions to be a plausible explanation of life on our planet - although, I'm definitely not an expert on Evolution. Similar to your thoughts Shawn, my biggest problem with evolution as a theory is it's purposelessness (is that a word?) By observing nature as it was created, there's no way I can believe that it wasn't meticulously purposed and planned.
Evolution follows scientific rules that were created by Man to help explain the world around us. I think for most part, these rules for observation and theory are good, but they have one major flaw - they cannot account for anything that cannot be directly observed. At this point, the origins of the universe, can only be a theory - scientifically speaking - including evolution. Because we ourselves were created, how can we possibly know how we were created unless someone tells us?
I also think that science can be practiced in two ways. One way is to simply observe and collect data and come to a conclusion. The other way is to come to a general conclusion, then find as many pieces of evidence as possible to confirm the conclusion. I think that second method has been employed in the science of evolution and that this is how evolution has become fact in so many people's minds.
After all this, Creation can't be proven - claiming so implies proof in the scientific sense and therefore puts it within the bounds of Man's rules - Creation is within God's rules - but far beyond us. And, proof of Evolution is scientific folly - since it too, cannot be directly observed.
Creation just is. How's that for a claim? : )
Good stuff Dan - and an excellent point by both you and Laura in regards to being able to prove Creation. I believe there are pointers that imply it, but not necessarily direct evidence of it - at least not yet.
With Creation being within the realm of "miracle" - I think we will never be able to prove it scientically (perhaps I'm naive on that point). The reason I say that is because miracles are not natural occurances within Nature and science is meant to explore and explain those things which show up in Nature time and time again. Scince miracles do not fall within this category, then there must be other avenues of knowledge available to us that allow us to know if miracles occur or not.
Therefore, I believe Creation falls within those same bounds (at least in my mind). Can we have some proof of it via the cosmos and astrophysics (much like the work that Amber does) - I think so. But it is still unable to explain it all and other disciplines must be used to come up with a more cohesive theory. Even then, there will still be questions - but I definitely don't believe that one discipline can account for the whole picture.
Hmmm - I had one other point to make and now it's slipped my mind. If I remember, I'll post it later.
Btw - why are you commenting? Don't you have LOST episodes to be watching? lol - just kidding man.
Shawn
Dan - Remember what I was going to ask you.
Have you started receiving any of the Gracetalk messages yet? I put a request in for you yesterday. I also put a request in that they change my email address where they send mind to, but that hasn't changed yet. Not sure if the person responsible for that duty is busy or what. Anyway, just wanted to check in on that.
Shawn
Laura - can we still be friends even if I'm an "Old Earth" proponent (a non-literal 6 day creationist)? :)
Shawn
God could leave a trademark in a fossil that dates back millions of years that says "Copyright GOD: 0 B.C.", but what fun would that be?
Shawn, you guys are stuck with us for life!
p.s. As you can see by the date/time stamp on this comment, we've been at your LOST dvds again!
Laura - God already has his fingerprints all over the place - copyright not needed. Although that would be funny if somebody found something like that - can you imagine the look on their face?
With things already having age - yeah, I think some things (like Adam and Eve) would have to been created as adults, but I'm presonally nervous about stretching the idea too far. The only reason is that I think it potentially do damage to academic disciplines like the sciences, archeaology and history, etc. Plus, I'm not clear on how to get around the "it looks deceptive" view of a Young Earth Theory and how that squares with the Nature and Attributes of God that Scripture teaches. All that being said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether the Earth is Young or Old in regards to my Faith. I usually don't engage on the topic of Young vs. Old when it comes to discussions with other Christians, because it's not really an edifying topic. However, I will discuss (either in-house or out of house) the idea of Evolution or Theistic-Evolution because I think, while the person maybe right-hearted, they are definitely wrong-headed.
I began watching Season 2 last night to get ready for the beginning of Season 3. I think Davina and I went to bed around 11:30 - lol
Shawn
Young or Old, the created Earth is a miracle in my book, and trying to understand it is like trying to understand any other miracle - how does water turn into wine, or how can you make someone crippled their whole lives, walk. Understanding these miracles can't be done with standard Human reasoning - it's beyond me - and expect every other human other than Jesus.
I do, however, enjoy hearing theories and insights on the subject from other people's points of view. I think that all too often, we Christians treat the discussion of Creation vs. Evolution as a taboo topic - it really shouldn't be that way. Just because we don't fully understand it, doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. I think we all agree that God created, and the Creation was a miracle - framed that way, the discussion could even be fun! Any theory isn't going to rock my faith in the miracle of Creation.
Shawn - we watched the next four episodes last night - trying to get done this week : )
I have to admit, I am a blind faith believer. I don't question what the Bible says on any subject. That said, I absolutely agree that I need to know as much as possible about other views of theology and interpretation so I am educated enough to discuss such controversial issues with others, whether Christians or not.
This has been a great discussion, Shawn. It's interesting to read about what others think.
Have I not taught my "Evidence produces Knowledge produces Faith (Active Trust)" class yet? I might have to make room to do that. :)
I think it's a different way to view Faith - to know that it is a very concrete concept. Not that I don't think you (Laura) think Faith is really a "blind" faith but rather a trust that you have put into God based on all the things he has already done.
Thanks for participating in the discussion - it's been fun so far getting all the feedback and interaction. It's been enjoyable.
Shawn
"Have I not taught my "Evidence produces Knowledge produces Faith (Active Trust)" class yet? I might have to make room to do that. :)"
Dude - we're running out of Sundays...
-d
Post a Comment
<< Home